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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffBrad Leblanc Date: Jun 15, 2006 11:30am
Forum: etree Subject: Some info on the changes

Most of the changes that occured in the last 48 hours cannot be seen by poking through the webpages. There was an *extreme* need to improve the Live Music contribution process and search engine - as I'm sure pretty most of our uploaders will agree - it was often buggy and unreliable as the volume of contributions to the LMA increased. We needed a complete overhaul of that system, and we wanted to match it up with what the rest of the audio collection is using so it will be much easier to roll out updates and fixes across the entire site. This led us to the changes you see today.

These changes mean a few things:
- more stability
- more scalability
- better tools for uploaders
- better performance

These improvements and changes were mandatory so the Live Music collection could continue growing. It would not have been possible to continue much longer with the old system.

Over the coming weeks and months we will try to consider the suggestions many of you have made today and implement those that are possible. For now, we ask that you have some patience and try the new features.

Thanks.

[One analogy here:
http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=61128 ]

[Original date of this post was 5/11/2006]

This post was modified by Brad Leblanc on 2006-05-15 10:45:32

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2006-06-15 18:30:10

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Poster: chalka Date: Jun 15, 2006 3:51pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Some info on the changes

Really dislike the new layout, not being able to search artist by year. ruined a perfectly good site. please try to go back to the old way.

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Poster: ftheg99 Date: Jun 17, 2006 12:26pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Some info on the changes

new layout sucks total ass. someone who knows an admin or engineer of the site should egg their house every night until they fix it back to the way it used to be. fuck this new confusing labyrinth of misinformation and dead ends. the worst change i have ever seen.

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Poster: ThePerfectStranger Date: Jun 15, 2006 11:06pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Some info on the changes

gotta agree with the majority of members posting here - this new format is very user-unfriendly. There's got to be some sort of middle ground between the old format that made it so easy to sample bands and this cumbersome monster you've got prowling the archive now. To tell you the truth just looking at the new archive format makes me feel really sleepy... lol

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Poster: 1yen Date: Jun 18, 2006 11:58am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Some info on the changes

seriously...my use of the site will undoubtedly decline because of this unintuitive, clunky format. "For the good of the future of this site" must include navigation that is simple and makes sense (like the archive of old).

don't get me wrong...I loooove what this site provides, but if I can't use it, it hardly serves its purpose.

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Poster: db521 Date: Jun 19, 2006 5:59am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Some info on the changes

I agree. The new format is way too hard to navigate. I can't understand why something that worked so good was messed with in the first place.

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Poster: db521 Date: Jun 15, 2006 12:25pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Some info on the changes

Brad, I don't see how the new format is any better. In fact I think it is not nearly as good. Before you could go right to a certain year. Now you have to fudge through to get to a certain year. I liked to look at certain bands and say...wow...look how many shows this band has. They must be good to be together all this time. Please change the site back to the original format and leave well enough alone. It is way harder to sort through shows to find what you want. Shame on you for messing with a good thing.

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Jun 15, 2006 12:33pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Some info on the changes

dude! - read through prior posts to understand why this had to be done. This is still a phenomenal site IMHO. progress must be made to accomodate all that this site is doing. If things are a bit tougher now (which really it isn't) - it is for the good of the music.

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Poster: db521 Date: Jun 15, 2006 1:29pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Some info on the changes

How do you tell what kind of a recording it is. There is no way to itemize by year. This format sucks.

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Poster: canuckhead Date: May 11, 2006 11:34am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Some info on the changes

I find these current changes make the webiste more cumbersome to navigate to the music I am looking for. I use to brag about archive, now I will remain silent(btw I refuse to bash your site as it promotes bad karma, i just won't promote it to my friends anymore). thanks for all the good memories and good luck with your changes.

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Poster: JodyC Date: May 15, 2006 5:51am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Some info on the changes

Maybe I didn't read the comments or replies close enough, but when I click on Browse artists... I see Little Feat now has 3 shows (not like 190) and the Dead have 91. Do I assume this is still in conversion and that all shows that were there will eventually return? Thanks. (initial unsolicited review of the changes is far less organized and much more difficult to actually browse. I have faith that all you fine folks on both sides of your respective keyboards will make this work).

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Poster: gmcgill Date: May 15, 2006 8:01am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Some info on the changes

These numbers don't represent what you might think they do. Click on the band, then you're at the collection page. Then from here you can sort shows by date, date added, ratings, etc. The shows are essentially all there. I'm not sure why the "number" next to the name is not really the number of available shows, but I'm sure it has to do with the database info.

p.s. Although there is a learning curve, I'm finding that I can navigate/search now about as easily as with the old format and there are some new tools that are quite handy.

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Poster: JodyC Date: May 15, 2006 10:00am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Some info on the changes

Thats good news. Is there "most popular" which I often used when downloading new bands to look at the top 3-4 shows, read the reviews and go from there. What tools do you find handy. Seems many features may be for uploaders not downloaders which is fine to insure the flow of new music.

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Poster: gmcgill Date: May 15, 2006 9:40pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Some info on the changes

Don't seem to have most popular list anymore (at least not yet). I agree, this was a useful feature. However, you can essentially "duplicate" this with the search function within the band collection. For example, sort by rating gets you the highest rated shows. You can use the advanced search to search for best rated within certain years, certain venues, etc. And you do still see "top downloads" on the band collection page (at least for some that I've looked at).

Also, see my comments here:

http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=61338


This post was modified by gmcgill on 2006-05-16 04:40:34

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Poster: JodyC Date: May 16, 2006 12:19am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Some info on the changes

Top downloads would be it. Just for reference for anyone looking to DL flac or shn files without the "whole show" option available- I did as was suggested and installed Firefox and Down Them All extention. Fast to load, easy to use even for compumorons like me. Once installed, click on the FTP option to the left of the show info. Then right click, then choose Down Them All, click on the circle to the left of the file you want to download, save it to a folder and off it goes.Pretty cool actually. I can understand now why there are so many fans of this program. If you have any problems just ask.

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Poster: gmcgill Date: May 16, 2006 12:12pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Some info on the changes

I agree. I use DownThemAll even when I had the whole show zip file option....found it faster in some cases.

By the way, you don't have to select each file you want to download. I setup filters within DTA that will automatically select only the FLAC, only the vbr.mp3, etc. Then this is *really* easy.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: May 16, 2006 12:40am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: DownThemAll

Yeah, and DTA used to be buggier, and now it seems better to me in the last few months. So if someone used it before but hasn't updated or tried it out in a while, give a try!

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Poster: thelizardking Date: May 14, 2006 6:08am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Some info on the changes

"We're trying to scare away the lightweights so the rest of us get faster downloads. :) Is that a conspiracy or what!"

Besides having our shows in 2 hours instead of 6, what exactly are we going to gain by scaring away lightweights? If it wasnt for the archive I would have never become the fan of the dead, yonder, keller or countless other artists, that i love, that i am today. The ease of the archive use allowed me to download hundreds of shows from new and interesting bands. Now we are trying to scare away these "lightweights" another word for new fans from the scene? We need these "lightweights" to have ease of use because who could become inspired by the amazing music that is on this site and go on to become a great band. I say its bullshit that we would try to steer clear of newcomers and people who do not enjoy the music as much as we do yet. To answer your question this is quite the fucking conspiracy and can only hurt the very thing that it has helped create.

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Poster: thirdofthree Date: May 14, 2006 6:20am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Some info on the changes

I say its bullshit that we would try to steer clear of newcomers and people who do not enjoy the music as much as we do yet. To answer your question this is quite the fucking conspiracy and can only hurt the very thing that it has helped create.

Uhmmmm...pretty sure the whole "scaring away lightweights" bit was just a joke.

This post was modified by thirdofthree on 2006-05-14 13:20:08

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Poster: damit_im_lohocla Date: May 14, 2006 7:14am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Some info on the changes

a joke eh? you know there is truth to everything, I highly doubt you would have even said something of that nature unless it was a serious statement. And the new layout is pretty awful, we shouldnt have to "get used to it" that is not correct web design by any means... fix this mess please. I too will not be telling anyone of this sight anymore either, I cant possibly reccommend this browsing NIGHTMARE.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or Staffgreenone Date: May 14, 2006 7:26am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Some info on the changes

Lightweight. ;)

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Poster: mike65! Date: May 14, 2006 8:53am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Some info on the changes

Lightweight, huh?! Well, bring it on, jack!! I've got a keyboard and a mouse, and I ain't afraid to use 'em!!! ;)

Seriously, thanks to Diana and the gang for renaming the "Brouse by Creator" thing. Believe it or not, it's a noticable difference. I'm going to like this new format.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffBrad Leblanc Date: May 14, 2006 12:30pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Some info on the changes

I was definitely joking. Nothing more than a reference to the old complaints that download speeds are always too slow.

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Poster: laptaper Date: May 14, 2006 3:46pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Some info on the changes

"Too slow"? Umm... (hides his head sheepishly) that's 'cause of me. :-\ Just got addicted to those weekend long sessions with the download manager clicking at 300-400K/sec. Uhm.. thank you? (runs out into the hallway covered in tears of shame){:-}

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Poster: Mark bjb Date: May 11, 2006 11:43am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Some info on the changes

How do I search for shows by year? How can I find a band that is new to me? How do I find anything I am looking for? These changes are completely user unfriendly. It reminds me of a Government website.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffBrad Leblanc Date: May 11, 2006 1:04pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Some info on the changes

How do I search for shows by year? How can I find a band that is new to me? How do I find anything I am looking for?

Try using Browse by Creator - it's right there in the middle of the front page and has been since we flipped the switch.

It reminds me of a Government website.

We're trying to scare away the lightweights so the rest of us get faster downloads. :) Is that a conspiracy or what!

This post was modified by Brad Leblanc on 2006-05-11 20:04:35

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Poster: sunsmitty Date: May 11, 2006 1:28pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Some info on the changes

What was once a user-friendly site has been turned into a nonsensical mess.

Why can't anyone see all the bands on the same page, as before? Without that feature, this site is annoying and cumbersome...you have to know what you're searching for to find it. It's restrictive; reveling in that is simply selfish. The advice to "browse by collection," which doesn't seem organized in the least, means someone must scroll through 34,000-plus entries.

Again, unless you know a specific band you're searching for, the site is now virtually useless.

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Poster: thirdofthree Date: May 11, 2006 3:30pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Some info on the changes

<<< Why can't anyone see all the bands on the same page, as before? >>>

<<< The advice to "browse by collection," which doesn't seem organized in the least, means someone must scroll through 34,000-plus entries.
>>>

See Brad's previous response: Browse by Creator.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffBrad Leblanc Date: May 15, 2006 3:14am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Some info on the changes

Browse by Creator has now been renamed to be more clear.

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Poster: yippierb Date: Jun 4, 2006 10:54am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Some info on the changes

"We're trying to scare away the lightweights so the rest of us get faster downloads. :) Is that a conspiracy or what!"
Sure sounds like it might be. Please define lightweight for us?

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Jun 4, 2006 11:14am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Some info on the changes

Someone who just skims a thread without reading it all before posting? ;)
More:
http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=61167

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Poster: yippierb Date: Jun 4, 2006 11:18am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Some info on the changes

Touche My dear. Although I have been reading for an hour now I did not come across Brads "joke" reference until you linked it. Thanks for the clarification it sounded bad. I do not have the time to stay abreast of online conversations concerning LMA and other interests. I've got all I can do just to listen and play a little music on the side.

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Poster: laptaper Date: May 14, 2006 3:18pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Some info on the changes

Thanks a lot for pointing out some of the things that you've needed to do to keep the site functional. I absolutely agree that before you present a nice shiny face to the world everything on the back end has to be functioning. That said, it's important then to step back and look at things from a user perspective (this is coals to Newcastle, I know). So again, I'd just like to offer some practical suggestions.

1. Simplify - Minimize the number of mouse clicks to get from the page where the bands are listed to a specific show. Before that was three - click on the band, year, date. If we can get back to that type of simplicity that would be great. I understand there's a number of robust search options, but searches can be time-consuming if you've entered the criteria incorrectly.

2. Put the page # links ("1, 2, ... 8, next, last") at the top as well as the bottom of the page. Saves a lot of scrolling.

3. Again, order by date of show as default instead of date added; this is how most people search through shows, and you can always have "order by date added" as an option for those who want it.

4. Display the source info without someone having to click on each individual show. This really slows things down.

Again, thanks so much for all your unpaid effort. We really do appreciate it. And I know this is a tough job, I only know enough about databases to be scared witless of them. But please, remember us poor only quasi-geeks who only know how to operate a keyboard and a mouse. :-)

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Poster: laptaper Date: May 14, 2006 3:50pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Some info on the changes

Put more simply (following my own advice), the less you need to explain to someone about how to navigate this site, the better it is.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: May 14, 2006 11:26pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Some info on the changes

Your 1,3,4 were already feature reqs; 2 is a good new one that I shoulda thought to suggest months ago, the way I use the SE. On the list too now. :)

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Poster: FenderJazz Date: May 13, 2006 1:38am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Some info on the changes

How do I search for Derek Trucks Band's 2006 shows. just as a forinstance. Am I missing something or is the site now bloody awful?

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: May 13, 2006 2:12am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Some info on the changes

There is a search box at the top of every single archive.org page page into which you can type
Derek Trucks 2006

There are ways to sort after you get some results. When you get a typical result show in the list, you can click on it, then you can also further explore the links you might see like
Collection: DerekTrucksBand
Band/Artist: Derek Trucks Band
Date: (some date) (check for other copies)

Go to that "collection" link for instance and you will get to the DTB collection page where you can type in the year you want to pull up.

As for more "clickable links off the main LMA page" ways to get to some stuff, there are a few on the page to explore- plus many feature req's from the last couple of days (read this forum) about ways to consider having more/better links, as work on the changeover progresses.

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2006-05-13 09:12:47

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Poster: ccox4000 Date: May 14, 2006 10:53pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Some info on the changes

So now if you wanted to look for D trucks 06 for instance, you have to type in a search? what is that? how is that better?

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: May 15, 2006 12:45am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Some info on the changes

Since this thread began, a couple more links have been added to the main LMA page for browsing shows. Explore those to have different ways of pulling up info- and there'll probably be some more stuff added over time, as the transition proceeds. Thanks for your patience.

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Poster: ccox4000 Date: May 15, 2006 4:25am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Some info on the changes

its not the ammount of info im complaining about, its the organization. It was so much more convenient before the change, this seems obvious to me, so will there be a page where it lists all the bands like before along with links that show that band's years and shows for those years?

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Poster: smgarcia Date: Jun 15, 2006 4:14pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Some info on the changes

I completely agree with this comment, I do accept the notion that the LMA part of this website was, architecturally, inferior to other parts of www.archive.org, but we have gone from user friendly (albeit maybe not engineer friendly) to not-user friendly. I used to love seeing all the years of the Grateful Dead, and the number of shows after each year. Then I liked what the result of clicking on that link. 1976(120), 1977(86), 1987(92) and so forth.

I think archive.org understands our concerns and I think/hope that they will be addressed.

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Poster: FenderJazz Date: May 13, 2006 2:18am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Some info on the changes

Thanks for the swift reply. I apologise for the critical remarks re the site. I'm sure we'll all get used to the changes very quickly.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: May 13, 2006 2:31am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Some info on the changes

It's a learning curve for everyone! Some parts of the feedback have been pretty helpful for engineers to look at what the top feature and fix req's are, so they can think about what's doable. (Other parts of the feedback, less so. ;) )

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Poster: Hatta Date: May 15, 2006 12:23am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Some info on the changes

You know, they have this thing called a "beta test". Maybe your engineers should look into it.

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Poster: freclay3 Date: May 13, 2006 3:48am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Some info on the changes

I see thinks have changed here ,been roming around gettting use to everthing agian , is there a way i can refine my search to file type (shn, flac. mp3)? This would help speed up my search headachs.change happen we'll get use to the changes quick enough . thanks in advace. fre

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Jul 14, 2006 7:36am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Searching by filetype

Here's a short version: Yes, to refine by filetype, you can add this extra term in the search box:
format:x, where the x values typical for LMA aka collection:etree are

format:shorten
format:flac
format:mp3 (this will pull up any fileset either flac or shn, that has lossy derivatives made for it.)

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2006-07-14 14:36:59

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: May 13, 2006 6:25am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: fun with search

There aren't any docs specifically on search engine tricks (yet. I sure could use some because I like to play with it), but you can figure out some tricks by looking at other links that the webmasters have put up. In this case, click through the "Browse bands with MP3s" link on the main LMA page: http://www.archive.org/browse.php?field=/metadata/bandWithMP3s&collection=etree

When you click on a band name in it, it's actually giving you search engine results that are specially filtered by terms in there, example HBRSB and see:

in the link bar:
http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=collection%3Aetree%20AND%20format%3Amp3%20AND%20%2Fmetadata%2Fcreator%3A%22Hot%20Buttered%20Rum%20String%20Band%22

in the search box:
collection:etree AND format:mp3 AND /metadata/creator:"Hot Buttered Rum String Band"

over the results
You searched for: collection:etree AND format:mp3 AND /metadata/creator:"Hot Buttered Rum String Band"

See the format:mp3 in there? I think that's the key. I don't know yet what other terms it accepts in that position (I'd try maybe shn or flac or flac24). I do know you can exclude things with a minus sign in front, so if you change the search box to make the format:mp3 into a -format:mp3, you will *exclude* shows with mp3.

http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=collection%3Aetree%20AND%20-format%3Amp3%20AND%20%2Fmetadata%2Fcreator%3A%22Hot%20Buttered%20Rum%20String%20Band%22

I've actually asked for sometthing like that as an analogous feature req alongside the BandsWithMP3 link, to help people on th eother side of the spectrum, looking for fancier lossless-only formats (like DTS or flac24).

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2006-05-13 13:25:01

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Jun 15, 2006 12:23pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Some info on the changes

please tell me Charlie Miller has not jumped ship over these changes!
Being a selfish downloader - i need Charlies uploads :)

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Poster: Creationrebel Date: May 15, 2006 1:18pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Some info on the changes

I for one am disgusted by all the negative complaining in this thread. Constructive criticism is one thing, but angry ranting is another, especially when the archive crew is trying to upgrade for our benefit. These people work hard to provide us with a great service that has brought me and many others great joy and fun. Please show a little more respect and gratitude.

Peace.

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Poster: JodyC Date: May 16, 2006 12:32am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Some info on the changes

I agree with your statement. While I was a bit confused with the changes, I just have to modify my behavior to adjust. I think what is happening here is a smaller version of those turbulent days back around Thanksgiving. The is some saying about not knowing what you have until its gone (or in this case changed). We have been so spoiled by this site that when things change we feel victimized. Gets kind of wierd when you consider everything here is free (I have sent some small token donations, but have reaped a hundred times what I've sown). Thanks for all the hard work the folks here at archive do and for taking the sometimes harsh critisism bestowed on you from your "fans". Rock on Tyler, Brad, Diana, John Aizen and company.

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